[Novalug] Fedora Linux - How to upgrade it - Must use pre-upgrade BEFORE a version upgrade?

Paul D. Bain paulbain@pobox.com
Sun Oct 25 19:53:47 EDT 2009


> Bryan J. Smith wrote:
>> [ Making an on-list post, or otherwise I'm going to make a dozen-plus
>> off-list posts. ]
>> 
>> Fedora does _not_ officially support distro version upgrades via YUM.
>> I cannot stress this enough.  It is repeated over and over, even in the FAQs.
>> 
>> It is right there _at_the_top_ of the the very posted link!!!
>> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/YumUpgradeFaq  
>> 
>>   "Although upgrades with yum have been tested and work, live
>>    upgrades
>> are not recommended by the Fedora Project. If you
>>    are not prepared to
>> resolve issues on your own if things break,
>>    you should probably use the
>> recommend installation methods
>>    instead."
>> 
>> Fedora _officially_ supports distro version upgrades via Anaconda _only_,
>> and _only_ X to X+1.  That's why "Pre-Upgrade" was created.  YUM is _not_
>> pre-upgrade.  The Fedora YUM Upgrading FAQ is an _unsupported_
>> method.
>> 
>> It's the _very_next_statement_ in the very posted link!!!
>> 
>>   "The recommended installation method is with a boot media with the
>>    Anaconda installer as detailed in the Installation Guide. PreUpgrade
>>    is a slightly different upgrade method where the all packages are
>>    downloaded before the system is rebooted into the Anaconda installer."
>> 
>> Anaconda includes YUM and many, many other things.  It is designed
>> specifically to deprecate and change things that YUM-RPM, or APT-RPM or
>> SmartPM for that matter, may or may not handle complete.
>> 
>> Doesn't mean you can't upgrade via YUM.  It also doesn't mean you can't
>> upgrade X to X+2 (or X+Y where Y>1).  It just means that if you don't use
>> Anaconda to upgrade anything Fedora-based, and a service, component
>> or other detail.
>> 
>> Understand I am a former Debian maintainer on a kernel module.  I _love_
>> Debian.  I _love_ the Debian Packaging Guidelines.  I love APT so much
>> that I even used APT-RPM for Red Hat Linux / Fedora dist-upgrades for
>> many years.

	Interesting. I would have not guessed this fact based on some of the 
comments that you have made on this mailing list (ML).

>> I trust apt-get dist-upgrade on Debian more than I do yum upgrade on Fedora.
>> Of course, Debian != Debian off-shoots, and they don't have the same
>> packaging guidelines (and I've had clients suffer through apt-get dist-upgrade
>> on various, non-Debian off-shoots).  Too many people think it's a DPKG v.
>> RPM detail, when it's more of a guidelines, packaging and repository detail,
>> and has little to with packaging.
>> 
>> Anyone who has supported Fedora, especially Fedora 7+ (with the unification
>> of the build system, repos, etc...) knows this.  It's still not Debian, and YUM isn't
>> APT -- although APT-RPM has many fans -- it will likely never be.  But to argue,
>> from a standpoint of total ignorance, that the only way to update Fedora is via
>> YUM is not the full story.
>> 
>> With Fedora, you have the Pre-Upgrade option -- Anaconda installed to the
>> hard drive, only downloading the _minimum_ packages you need for the update.
>> That's the _official_ way to update and, again, only X+1.  If you do anything else,
>> you could have issues with one or more services, components, etc...  Typically
>> I only have 0-2 with YUM, and they are often covered by varoius people, but
>> Pre-upgrade makes it rather moot.
>> 
>> Do *NOT* upgrade with anything but Pre-upgrade *UNLESS* you are an expert.
>> Pre-upgrade exists so you don't have to boot CD/DVD media, you don't have to
>> have (on the media) or download all of the packages in the special Anaconda
>> mode.

>> Furthermore, newer RPM v4.6 now has deltas, so it will even do (with a plug-in,
>> to a supported server, such as a select YUM repo, or a dynamic generating
>> Spacewalk server) just the deltas of the individual RPM package updates.  It 
>> 
>> Again, it's designed to ...
>>  - Analyze your system
>>  - Get just the packages you need (or deltas with RPM v4.6 + supported repo)
>>  - Install Anaconda to the hard drive
>>  - Let you boot into Anaconda for the upgrade
>> 
>> There are many advantages to Anaconda over just YUM.  Please *NEVER*
>> use anything else *UNLESS* you are an expert.  Pre-upgrade makes this very,
>> very painless.  It does virtually everything for you.

	Even more interesting. Let me ensure that I understand your remarks 
correctly. Are you saying that, when my attempt to upgrade a host from 
Fedora 6 to Fedora 7 failed, such failure may have sprung from my 
neglecting to run a "pre-upgrade" before using yum? And are you _also_ 
saying that I must install Anaconda in order to run a pre-upgrade?

	If so, that is interesting. I had used Fedora intermittently for years 
(2004 to 2008) and never knew these facts, perhaps because I am a 
DPKG+aptitude "bigot." I know far more about the DPKG distributions than 
I do about the RPM distributions because, in this regard, I am bigoted. 
It is obvious to me that the Debian+Ubuntu way is far superior.

>> If you don't know anything about Pre-upgrade, and you are stuck with Fedora
>> knowledge that is 3, 4 and, God help us ;), 5+ years outta date, please, please
>> either learn the great number of changes or please reserve yourself so you don't
>> look dated.  It's a great disservice to use any oversight or hiccup as an opportunity
>> to market.
>> 
>> I never do it with Debian, or even Ubuntu for that matter.  In fact many Fedora / Red
>> Hat "professionals" are renouned for their "knowledge" of Debian/Ubuntu systems
>> because they understand many cross-Linux implementation concepts. Again, many
>> of us "professionals" have had countless issues with apt-get dist-upgrade with non-
>> Debian releases (let alone if you start tapping all sorts of non-Debian repositories).
>> 
>> I've seen my share of systems completely toasted after apt-get dist-upgrade.
>> I.e., You _must_ know what you're doing, regardless of distro.
>> 
>> Sticking noses up in the air and pointing fingers is childish, so don't add to it.
>> Instead, one should educate themselves and/or consider what it will look like.
>> If not, then stating things about Fedora that are not true will only lead to people
>> recognizing your lack of familiarity.

	Yeah, well, some of us prefer to spend time learning non-Linux things, 
too, you know. I first installed Linux on my home PC in 1997, but Linux 
is not the only thing that I stay abreast of, that is for sure. My Linux 
knowledge represents a __small__ part of my total IT knowledge, which 
includes knowledge relating to, e.g., web administration, network 
administration, software development (e.g., Java, Perl, OOA&D, UML, 
etc.), CMS's, document management systems (DMS's), processing and 
storing email, digital forensic exams, and open source software of all 
types.

	Furthermore, in the last 3.5 years, I have largely ignored new 
developments in IT, preferring to spend time learning legal technology 
instead. Finally, my Linux-and-IT knowledge is atrophying due to 
non-use. These days, I do not tend any Linux servers other than my own.

>> I know you don't like me Paul because I seemingly "cut" you shortly after I decided
>> to stop lurking on the list (which I did for the first 6 weeks before coming on).  

	Yeah, you were a bit curt on this occasion:

	http://calypso.tux.org/pipermail/novalug/2009-September/104743.html

I have since forgiven you, however, due to your considerable and noble 
efforts at helping others on this ML. Truthfully, I was sorry to see you 
leave the ML.

>> But you
>> keep doing this over and over, instead of pointing people to supported mechanisms.
>> And that's a result of having _not_ used Fedora, or CentOS for that matter, for a long
>> time (if ever?).
>>   http://calypso.tux.org/pipermail/novalug/2009-September/104743.html  
>> 
>> If I wanted to see the same marketing non-sense where users spew such non-sense
>> instead of helping users, causing them to install and re-install different distros over
>> and over as "more experienced" (questionable) "fight/marketing" over what distro
>> they should run, I would go back to the commercial software world.  Let's actually
>> help people instead of jumping on any opportunity to spew marketing non-sense.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> ----- Original Message ----
>> From: Paul D. Bain <paulbain@pobox.com>
>> To: novalug@calypso2.tux.org
>> Sent: Sun, October 25, 2009 6:24:26 PM
>> Subject: Re: [Novalug] Getting Fedora 11 to work -- Upgrading Fedora hosts difficult
>> 
>> American Dave wrote:
>> 
>>> On Sun, Oct 25, 2009 at 11:16:47AM -0500, Beartooth wrote: 
>>>
>>>> On Sat, 24 Oct 2009, Charles M Howe wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> This is a new thread. I wrote one message and got a few 
>>>>> replies, but I didn't reply to any of them. [....]
>>>>> Huge embarrassment. While I have no recollection of choosing 
>>>>> one on Oct 10, I must have. If anybody has a suggestion, please 
>>>>> say. But I expect to have to reinstall.[....] 
>>>>      Remember F12 is due out next month. At that point -- or a 
>>>> few days later to let the bandwidth diminish -- you should be 
>>>> able to do a pre-upgrade, let it complete, and reboot at your 
>>>> convenience -- thus keeping all your tweaks.
>>> Fedora's just not good at upgrading.  10 -> 11 didn't go super well for
>>> me, and even the docs suggest re-imaging if it's an option.
>>>
>>> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/YumUpgradeFaq
>>>
>>> -A. Dave
>> 
>>     Hell, yes, American Dave, you got that right. And I amazed that some of 
>> the Linux "professionals" on this list _still_ do not understand this 
>> simple fact. I wonder whether these "professionals" have _ever_ actually 
>> attempted to upgrade a Fedora host, as they claim to have done.





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